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Arguments for a young earth

One of my favorite sites, answersingenesis.org , has this very interesting article:
 
 
 
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Answering John Derbyshire on "Expelled" movie

John Derbyshire, the resident Darwinist at National Review Online, wrote a scathing attack on the movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" by Ben Stein.
 
 
One important thing to remember is that the Intelligent Design Movement is not Creationism; I am a Creationist, and I can tell the difference.  For a full treatment of scientific inquiry from a Creationist perspective, go here:  www.answersingenesis.org
These are the guys who founded the Creation Museum.
 
 
 
For God and Free Trade
cavalier973
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To Ban or Not to Ban

If you go here you can read the wikipedia article on Grand Theft Auto 4:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTA4
 
And here is the Baptist Press article on the game: http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/article_main_page/0%2C1703%2CA%25253D167602%252526M%25253D200727%2C00.html?
 
From the description, there are elements to the game that actually sound fun.  Exploring an environment that detailed seems interesting.  There is open gameplay, which means you are not tied down to the "missions" that are necessary to complete the game.  If it's anything like the earlier games, you can do things like steal taxi cabs and drive around collecting fares; steal a police car and you can go vigilante, pulling over speeders, etc.  It's escapist fantasy.
The plot involves you taking the role of an ex-Serbian soldier who comes to America.  You quickly become involved in criminal activity, stealing cars, murdering people; you know, fun stuff.
 
So should GTA4 be banned?  Social Libertarians have a solid argument against banning the game:  that the government should not be interfering in our personal lives.  But aren't there some activities that should be banned even if they do no direct harm to others?  Say, smoking marijuana?  Of course all Libertarians give a resounding "NO!" to this question.  They say that while government should protect its citizens from each other, it has no business protecting us from ourselves.  Following this philosophy to its logical conclusion, the Libertarians will say that suicide should not be illegal (especially for those, say, dying of cancer).  But in holding to this philosophy, Libertarians don't seem to understand that we are social creatures; it is possible for me to engage in behavior that, while "harming" no one directly, can still be hurting others, violating their rights. 
 
Libertarians will also apparently consider no evidence that media can influence behavior.  If someone continually subjects themselves to violent fantasies, he will eventually become a violent person. This is especially true of children. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_effects_theory  , http://www.webmd.com/parenting/news/20050610/media-violence-may-affect-childrens-minds , http://www2.focusonthefamily.com/press/pressreleases/a000001034.cfm , http://actagainstviolence.apa.org/mediaviolence/index.html 
 
Mentioned in the earlier wikipedia article is a provision in the law against "public nuisance", which applies to loud music, loitering, etc.  A game in which you assasinate real people, like the President, might be banned under this provision of the law.  A lawyer in Florida sued to stop distribution of the GTA4 game based on this premise.  The case was settled out of court, and the game will continue to be distributed in Florida, so it looks like the game won't be banned under this premise.
 
The only solid argument that might convince a Libertarian that a video game should be banned, is if it can be directly tied to acts of violence, rapine, and other criminal activities; something that would be almost impossible to do.
 
So what about Tropico?  If I am going to ban a game for violence, why not a game that allows you to torture political prisoners and cheat at elections?  The difference is that you are not shown graphic depictions of people being "tortured".  Also, in order to win at Tropico, you are not required to engage in the corrupt behavior.  You can win by being squeaky clean just as well as being a Fidel Castro. 
 
In GTA4, you are not given that option.  You must be a criminal to win the game.  It's almost humorous that Libertarians defend people's "right" to play a video game in which the whole purpose seems to be violating people's rights. You are required to think like a criminal, act like a criminal, to the very end.  You cannot join the police force and arrest the main bad guy.  You are not allowed to take the role of the prosecuting attorney, digging up evidence to bring down the criminal syndicate.  You don't get to start a local chapter of the Guardian Angels.  No, it's all stealing cars and killing cops, all the while seeking "revenge" against, get this, people who did bad stuff to you. 
 
There are levels to acceptability, and reasonable people can see what's acceptable and what's not.  Some people accuse me of trying to be a "dictator", forcing "my views" on everyone else.  But it's not just me, myself.  A lot of people; reasonable and responsible people; conservative people;  people who believe in limited government; that are distressed by this descent into immorality.  At some point, a video game will become so offensive that overwhelmingly these people will say that it should be banned by the government.  And they will be right, and they will succeed in their endeavor.  As I mentioned in the earlier post, what if a company published a game where you played as a member of the KKK? or if you were the leader of a terrorist group planning and executing acts of terrorism?  What if the game had you continually assault, molest, and murder children (virtual, of course)?  What if the game allowed you to paste pictures of your neighbor's children onto the avatar?  Social Libertarians might still defend the "right" to play such games, but people who will have to deal with the consequences of game players that are inured to the idea of social destruction will not.
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The curse of Libertarianism and Grand Theft Auto 4

I recently got into a scuffle with a social libertarian over the game "Grand Theft Auto 4". 

Here's my first salvo:
So, if Rockstar Games' next effort
is a game called "KKK Hero", where you play a character who routinely assaults, lynches, murders and otherwise harrasses black people, Jews, etc., all the while taking orders from the "Grand Wizard" to take out a rival group, then I can count on all you GTA proponents to say "it's just a game", right?

You don't seem to believe the power of thought. If I think about something enough, like making cookies, eventually I'm going to do it. I would never have considered the possibility of pulling someone out of their car and running them over with it until I played this game (GTA Vice City was the one I played. My brothers loved it and tried desperately to get me into it. I thought it was boring, actually.)
 
At some point, some other poster (named American Mom) mentioned that laws against murder are a form of legislating morality.
One Vindex responded thus:
 
American Mom writes:
"A society deems murder immoral, so it makes laws against murder."

It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with morality. Murder is an infringement on a persons pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness. No "moral code" needed. Just another BS justification for liberal and fascist policies from the self-described 'socons' who love to pray publically and loudly so other men can see them and be impressed and love to wear religion on their brown-shirt sleeves.

"I would not want to relinquish all of my decision-making to government, particularly since no government ever completely had the good of the little people as its highest priority."

Of course you don't. You only want them to restrict the freedom of everyone else. You don't want them to touch YOUR vices, but have no problem with them cracking the skulls of those YOU determine to be 'filthy' according to your own subjective 'moral code.'
 
I asked him a question:

Vindex
You write: "It doesn't have ANYTHING to do with morality. Murder is an infringement on a persons pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness."

What standard do you use to say it is wrong to infringe on a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?
 
Vindex returned:
 
cavalier973 writes:
"What standard do you use to say it is wrong to infringe on a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness?"

The constitution of the U.S. and the declaration of independence.

You?

=================

Some of you people are so irrational, it drives me insane. About as insane as I get trying to talk to liberals. Just another example of how you socons are BARELY ideologically removed.

American Mom, I am not even going to engage you any further in discussion. You are apparently mentally and intellectually handicapped and your self-boasting righteousness is EXACTLY that which I referred to when I said people that "pray loudly and publicly." Go look it up in your bible. Jesus warned us about those people.

 
And here is my full response to this inanity:



You say that laws against murder is not legislating morality.  You say that laws against murder are there because it's wrong to infringe on a person's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

Now you say that the basis for murder being a violation of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is "the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution."  Is that the only basis?  Because if it is, what did people do before these documents were written?  What about people not living in the U.S.A.?  Any law against violating someone else's "rights" is by definition a legislation of morality.

And, by the way, you imply that a person has a right to play mature video games;  what about our right to live in a society that does not have these games?  Which right is more important?

I have not advocated any banning of anything, video game or otherwise, by the way (although it's getting closer to the point where I will be writing my congressman urging him to "ban it now");  I am addressing this philosophy summed up in the phrase "it's only a game."  I'm asking if there is a line drawn somewhere for libertarian philosophy.  Is there any game, in your wildest imagination, that should not be produced or played?  If there is, then we are really arguing over where that line should be.  If there is no game concept that a libertarian finds so offensive that he would want to ban it, then I really don't have any confidence at all in his ability to think clearly about morality and social policy.

The unfettered ability to do whatever you like is not the same as liberty.  If you have no self-control then you are as much a slave as any unfortunate prole in a communist tyranny.  What's more, if you have no self-control, the Government eventually catches on and provides control for you.  It doesn't matter if the government is a theocracy or an atheistic communist government.

In my mind, you social libertarians who are calling for the absolute abolition of "government control over our lives" are, in a roundabout way, the ones who most guarantee its existence.

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